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Linked Discourses 44.8 – Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.8
1. The Undeclared Points – 1. Abyākatavagga
SN 44.8 With Vacchagotta – Vacchagottasutta
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.
Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
“Master Gotama, is this right: ‘the cosmos is eternal’?”
“kiṁ nu kho, bho gotama, sassato loko”ti?
“This has not been declared by me, Vaccha.” …
“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, vaccha, mayā: ‘sassato loko’ti …pe….
“Then is this right: ‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death’?”
“Kiṁ pana, bho gotama, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?
“This too has not been declared by me.”
“Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṁ mayā:
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.
“What’s the cause, Master Gotama, what’s the reason why the wanderers who follow other paths answer these questions when asked?
“Ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu, ko paccayo, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā?
And what’s the cause, what’s the reason why Master Gotama doesn’t answer these questions when asked?”
Ko pana, bho gotama, hetu, ko paccayo, yena bhoto gotamassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti?
“Vaccha, the wanderers who follow other paths regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
“Aññatitthiyā kho, vaccha, paribbājakā rūpaṁ attato samanupassanti, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
They regard feeling …
Vedanaṁ attato samanupassanti …pe…
perception …
saññaṁ …pe…
saṅkhāra …
saṅkhāre …pe…
consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness.
viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassanti, viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
That’s why they answer these questions when asked.
Tasmā aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā.
The Realized One doesn’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
Tathāgato ca kho, vaccha, arahaṁ sammāsambuddho na rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā rūpaṁ, na rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
He doesn’t regard feeling …
Na vedanaṁ attato samanupassati …pe…
perception …
na saññaṁ …pe…
saṅkhāra …
na saṅkhāre …pe…
consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness.
na viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā viññāṇaṁ, na viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
That’s why he doesn’t answer these questions when asked.”
Tasmā tathāgatassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti.
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta got up from his seat and went to Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, and exchanged greetings with him.
Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako uṭṭhāyāsanā yenāyasmā mahāmoggallāno tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā mahāmoggallānena saddhiṁ sammodi.
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. He asked Mahāmoggallāna the same questions, and received the same answers.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako āyasmantaṁ mahāmoggallānaṁ etadavoca:
“kiṁ nu kho, bho moggallāna, sassato loko”ti?
“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, vaccha, bhagavatā: ‘sassato loko’ti …pe….
“Kiṁ pana, bho moggallāna, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?
“Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.
“Ko nu kho, bho moggallāna, hetu, ko paccayo, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā?
Ko pana, bho moggallāna, hetu, ko paccayo yena samaṇassa gotamassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti?
“Aññatitthiyā kho, vaccha, paribbājakā rūpaṁ attato samanupassanti, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Vedanaṁ attato samanupassanti …pe…
saññaṁ …pe…
saṅkhāre …pe…
viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassanti, viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Tasmā aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā.
Tathāgato ca kho, vaccha, arahaṁ sammāsambuddho na rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā rūpaṁ, na rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Na vedanaṁ attato samanupassati …pe…
na saññaṁ …pe…
na saṅkhāre …pe…
na viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā viññāṇaṁ, na viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Tasmā tathāgatassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi, ‘asassato loko’tipi, ‘antavā loko’tipi, ‘anantavā loko’tipi, ‘taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīran’tipi, ‘aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīran’tipi, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti.
He said, “It’s incredible, Master Moggallāna, it’s amazing.
“Acchariyaṁ, bho moggallāna, abbhutaṁ, bho moggallāna.
How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!
Yatra hi nāma satthu ca sāvakassa ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati, yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.
Just now I went to the ascetic Gotama and asked him about this matter.
Idānāhaṁ, bho moggallāna, samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ upasaṅkamitvā etamatthaṁ apucchiṁ.
And he explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like Master Moggallāna.
Samaṇopi me gotamo etehi padehi etehi byañjanehi etamatthaṁ byākāsi, seyyathāpi bhavaṁ moggallāno.
It’s incredible, Master Moggallāna, it’s amazing!
Acchariyaṁ, bho moggallāna, abbhutaṁ, bho moggallāna.
How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!”
Yatra hi nāma satthu ca sāvakassa ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati samessati na virodhayissati, yadidaṁ aggapadasmin”ti.