SN 35-44 The Group of Connected Discourses Beginning With the Six Sense Fields – Saḷāyatanavaggasaṁyutta > SN 44 Connected Discourses on the Undeclared – Abyākatasaṁyutta > SN 44.9 The Debating Hall

Linked Discourses 44.9 – Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.9

1. The Undeclared Points – 1. Abyākatavagga

SN 44.9 The Debating Hall – Kutūhalasālāsutta

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.

Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“Master Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other paths were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:

“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi:

‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.

‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.

When a disciple passes away, he declares that

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

This Makkhali Gosāla …

Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe…

Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta …

ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe…

Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …

ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe…

Pakudha Kaccāyana …

ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe…

Ajita Kesakambala leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.

ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.

When a disciple passes away, he declares that

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”’ti.

This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.

Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.

When a disciple passes away, he declares that

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti.

But as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he doesn’t declare that

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti:

this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti.

Rather, he declares that they have

Api ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti:

cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit have made an end of suffering.

‘acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā’ti.

I had doubt and uncertainty about that:

Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā:

‘How on earth can I understand the ascetic Gotama’s teaching?’”

‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?

“Vaccha, no wonder you’re doubting and uncertain.

“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ.

Doubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.

Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.

I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.

Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa.

It’s like a fire which only burns with fuel, not without fuel.

Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno;

In the same way I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.”

evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.

“But when a flame is blown away by the wind, what do you say is its fuel then?”

“Yasmiṁ, bho gotama, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?

“At such a time, I say that it’s fueled by wind.

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi.

For the wind is its fuel then.”

Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.

“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Master Gotama say is their fuel then?”

“Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?

“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi.

For craving is their fuel then.”

Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.