MN 35 The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka

Medium Discourses Collection 35 – Majjhima Nikāya 35

MN 35 The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka – Cūḷasaccakasutta

1.1

So I have heard.

Evaṁ me sutaṁ—

1.2

At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā vesāliyaṁ viharati mahāvane kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

2.1

Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Vesālī. He was a debater and clever speaker regarded as holy by many people.

Tena kho pana samayena saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ paṭivasati bhassappavādako paṇḍitavādo sādhusammato bahujanassa.

2.2

He was telling a crowd in Vesālī,

So vesāliyaṁ parisati evaṁ vācaṁ bhāsati:

2.3

“If I was to take them on in debate, I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin—leader of an order or a community, or the teacher of a community, even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha—who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits.

“nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ.

2.4

Even if I took on an insentient post in debate, it would shake and rock and tremble.

Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ, sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya.

2.5

How much more then a human being!”

Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā”ti?

3.1

Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Vesālī for alms.

Atha kho āyasmā assaji pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya vesāliṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi.

3.2

As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance.

Addasā kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ jaṅghāvihāraṁ anucaṅkamamāno anuvicaramāno āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ.

3.3

He approached him and exchanged greetings with him.

Disvāna yenāyasmā assaji tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā assajinā saddhiṁ sammodi.

3.4

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji,

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṁ ṭhito kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ etadavoca:

4.1

“Master Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And how does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?”

“kathaṁ pana, bho assaji, samaṇo gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti?

4.2

“Aggivessana, this is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds:

“Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati:

4.3

‘Form, feeling, perception, actions done with defilement, and consciousness are anicca.

‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ.

4.4

Form, feeling, perception, actions done with defilement, and consciousness are not-self.

Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā.

4.5

All conditions are anicca. All things are not-self.’

Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti.

4.6

This is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.”

Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti.

4.7

“It’s sad to hear, Master Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine.

“Dussutaṁ vata, bho assaji, assumha ye mayaṁ evaṁvādiṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ assumha.

4.8

Hopefully, some time or other I’ll get to meet Master Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful misconception.”

Appeva nāma mayaṁ kadāci karahaci tena bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ samāgaccheyyāma, appeva nāma siyā kocideva kathāsallāpo, appeva nāma tasmā pāpakā diṭṭhigatā viveceyyāmā”ti.

5.1

Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the meeting hall on some business.

Tena kho pana samayena pañcamattāni licchavisatāni santhāgāre sannipatitāni honti kenacideva karaṇīyena.

5.2

Then Saccaka went up to them and said,

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te licchavī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te licchavī etadavoca:

5.3

“Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.

“abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissati.

5.4

If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples—a bhikkhu named Assaji—I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would drag a fleecy sheep to and fro and round about!

Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhissati yathā ca me ñātaññatarena sāvakena assajinā nāma bhikkhunā patiṭṭhitaṁ, seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya;

5.5

evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.

5.6

Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākiḷañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya;

5.7

evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.

5.8

Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya;

5.9

evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi.

5.10

I’ll play a game of ear-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of ear-washing!

Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati;

5.11

evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi.

5.12

Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.”

Abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissatī”ti.

6.1

At that, some of the Licchavis said,

Tatrekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu:

6.2

“How can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka’s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama’s doctrine?”

“kiṁ samaṇo gotamo saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti?

6.3

But some of the Licchavis said,

Ekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu:

6.4

“Who is Saccaka to refute the Buddha’s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka’s doctrine?”

“kiṁ so bhavamāno saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yo bhagavato vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho bhagavā saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti?

6.5

Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto pañcamattehi licchavisatehi parivuto yena mahāvanaṁ kūṭāgārasālā tenupasaṅkami.

7.1

At that time several bhikkhū were walking mindfully in the open air.

Tena kho pana samayena sambahulā bhikkhū abbhokāse caṅkamanti.

7.2

Then Saccaka went up to them and said,

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te bhikkhū etadavoca:

7.3

“Gentlemen, where is Master Gotama at present?

“kahaṁ nu kho, bho, etarahi so bhavaṁ gotamo viharati?

7.4

For we want to see him.”

Dassanakāmā hi mayaṁ taṁ bhavantaṁ gotaman”ti.

7.5

“Aggivessana, the Buddha has plunged deep into the Great Wood and is sitting at the root of a tree for the day’s meditation.”

“Esa, aggivessana, bhagavā mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā aññatarasmiṁ rukkhamūle divāvihāraṁ nisinno”ti.

8.1

Then Saccaka, together with a large group of Licchavis, went to see the Buddha in the Great Wood, and exchanged greetings with him.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto mahatiyā licchaviparisāya saddhiṁ mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.

8.2

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side.

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi.

8.3

Before sitting down to one side, some of the Licchavīs bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their joined palms toward the Buddha, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.

Tepi kho licchavī appekacce bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu, sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce yena bhagavā tenañjaliṁ paṇāmetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavato santike nāmagottaṁ sāvetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce tuṇhībhūtā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu.

9.1

Then Saccaka said to the Buddha,

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

9.2

“I’d like to ask Master Gotama about a certain point, if you’d take the time to answer.”

“puccheyyāhaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ kiñcideva desaṁ, sace me bhavaṁ gotamo okāsaṁ karoti pañhassa veyyākaraṇāyā”ti.

9.3

“Ask what you wish, Aggivessana.”

“Puccha, aggivessana, yadākaṅkhasī”ti.

9.4

“How does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And how does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?”

“Kathaṁ pana bhavaṁ gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana bhoto gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti?

9.5

“This is how I guide my disciples, and how instruction to my disciples generally proceeds:

“Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati:

9.6

‘Form, feeling, perception, actions done with defilement, and consciousness are anicca.

‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ.

9.7

Form, feeling, perception, actions done with defilement, and consciousness are not-self.

Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā.

9.8

All conditions are anicca. All things are not-self.’

Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti.

9.9

This is how I guide my disciples, and how instruction to my disciples generally proceeds.”

Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti.

10.1

“A simile strikes me, Master Gotama.”

“Upamā maṁ, bho gotama, paṭibhātī”ti.

10.2

“Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha.

“Paṭibhātu taṁ, aggivessanā”ti bhagavā avoca.

10.3

“All the plants and seeds that achieve growth, increase, and maturity do so depending on the earth and grounded on the earth.

“Seyyathāpi, bho gotama, ye kecime bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya.

10.4

Evamete bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti.

10.5

All the hard work that gets done depends on the earth and is grounded on the earth.

Seyyathāpi vā pana, bho gotama, ye kecime balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya.

10.6

Evamete balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti.

10.7

In the same way, an individual’s self is form. Grounded on form they make good and bad actions done with defilement. An individual’s self is feeling … perception … actions done with defilement … consciousness. Grounded on consciousness they make good and bad actions done with defilement.”

Evameva kho, bho gotama, rūpattāyaṁ purisapuggalo rūpe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, vedanattāyaṁ purisapuggalo vedanāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saññattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saññāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saṅkhārattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saṅkhāresu patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, viññāṇattāyaṁ purisapuggalo viññāṇe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavatī”ti.

11.1

“Aggivessana, are you not saying this:

“Nanu tvaṁ, aggivessana, evaṁ vadesi:

11.2

‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, actions done with defilement are my self, consciousness is my self’?”

‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti?

11.3

“Indeed, Master Gotama, that is what I am saying.

“Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi:

11.4

And this big crowd agrees with me!”

‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, ayañca mahatī janatā”ti.

11.5

“What has this big crowd to do with you?

“Kiñhi te, aggivessana, mahatī janatā karissati?

11.6

Please just explain your own statement.”

Iṅgha tvaṁ, aggivessana, sakaññeva vādaṁ nibbeṭhehī”ti.

11.7

“Then, Master Gotama, what I am saying is this:

“Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi:

11.8

‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, actions done with defilement are my self, consciousness is my self’.”

‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti.

12.1

“Well then, Aggivessana, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.

“Tena hi, aggivessana, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi, yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.

12.2

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

12.3

Consider an anointed aristocratic king such as Pasenadi of Kosala or Ajātasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha.

vatteyya rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—

12.4

Would they have the power in their own realm to execute, fine, or banish those who are guilty?”

ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassā”ti?

12.5

“An anointed king would have such power, Master Gotama.

“Vatteyya, bho gotama, rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—

12.6

12.7

Even federations such as the

Imesampi hi, bho gotama, saṅghānaṁ gaṇānaṁ—

12.8

Vajjis and Mallas

Seyyathidaṁ—vajjīnaṁ mallānaṁ—

12.9

have such power in their own realm.

vattati sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—

12.10

ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ.

12.11

So of course an anointed king such as Pasenadi or Ajātasattu

Kiṁ pana rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa?

12.12

would wield such power, as is their right.”

Vatteyya, bho gotama, vattituñca marahatī”ti.

13.1

“What do you think, Aggivessana?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

13.2

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

13.3

‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say:

‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso—

13.4

‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?”

evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti?

13.5

When he said this, Saccaka kept silent.

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi.

13.6

The Buddha asked the question a second time,

Dutiyampi kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca:

13.7

“taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

13.8

‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso—

13.9

evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti?

13.10

but Saccaka still kept silent.

Dutiyampi kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi.

13.11

So the Buddha said to Saccaka,

Atha kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca:

13.12

“Answer now, Aggivessana. Now is not the time for silence.

“byākarohi dāni, aggivessana, na dāni te tuṇhībhāvassa kālo.

13.13

If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Yo koci, aggivessana tathāgatena yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākaroti, etthevassa sattadhā muddhā phalatī”ti.

14.1

Now at that time the spirit Vajirapāṇi, taking up a burning iron thunderbolt, blazing and glowing, stood in the sky above Saccaka, thinking,

Tena kho pana samayena vajirapāṇi yakkho āyasaṁ vajiraṁ ādāya ādittaṁ sampajjalitaṁ sajotibhūtaṁ saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa uparivehāsaṁ ṭhito hoti:

14.2

“If this Saccaka doesn’t answer when asked a third time, I’ll blow his head into seven pieces there and then!”

“sacāyaṁ saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavatā yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākarissati etthevassa sattadhā muddhaṁ phālessāmī”ti.

14.3

And both the Buddha and Saccaka could see Vajirapāṇi.

Taṁ kho pana vajirapāṇiṁ yakkhaṁ bhagavā ceva passati saccako ca nigaṇṭhaputto.

14.4

Saccaka was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, protection, and refuge, he said,

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhīto saṁviggo lomahaṭṭhajāto bhagavantaṁyeva tāṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva leṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva saraṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

14.5

“Ask me, Master Gotama. I will answer.”

“pucchatu maṁ bhavaṁ gotamo, byākarissāmī”ti.

15.1

“What do you think, Aggivessana?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

15.2

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

15.3

‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say:

‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso—

15.4

‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?”

evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti?

15.5

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

16.1

“Think about it, Aggivessana!

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana;

16.2

You should think before answering.

manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi.

16.3

What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ pacchimena vā purimaṁ.

16.4

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

16.5

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

16.6

‘Feeling is my self,’ do you have power over that feeling to say:

‘vedanā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ vedanāyaṁ vaso—

16.7

‘May my feeling be like this! May it not be like that’?”

evaṁ me vedanā hotu, evaṁ me vedanā mā ahosī”ti?

16.8

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

17.1

“Think about it, Aggivessana!

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana;

17.2

You should think before answering.

manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi.

17.3

What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ.

17.4

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

17.5

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

17.6

‘Perception is my self,’ do you have power over that perception to say:

‘saññā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ saññāyaṁ vaso—

17.7

‘May my perception be like this! May it not be like that’?”

evaṁ me saññā hotu, evaṁ me saññā mā ahosī”ti?

17.8

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

18.1

“Think about it, Aggivessana!

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana;

18.2

You should think before answering.

manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi.

18.3

What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ.

18.4

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

18.5

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

18.6

‘Actions done with defilement are my self,’ do you have power over those actions done with defilement to say:

‘saṅkhārā me attā’ti, vattati te tesu saṅkhāresu vaso—

18.7

‘May my actions done with defilement be like this! May they not be like that’?”

evaṁ me saṅkhārā hontu, evaṁ me saṅkhārā mā ahesun”ti?

18.8

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

19.1

“Think about it, Aggivessana!

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana;

19.2

You should think before answering.

manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi.

19.3

What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ.

19.4

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

19.5

When you say,

yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi:

19.6

‘Consciousness is my self,’ do you have power over that consciousness to say:

‘viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ viññāṇe vaso—

19.7

‘May my consciousness be like this! May it not be like that’?”

evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ hotu, evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ mā ahosī”ti?

19.8

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.1

“Think about it, Aggivessana!

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana;

20.2

You should think before answering.

manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi.

20.3

What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ.

20.4

What do you think, Aggivessana?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

20.5

Is form permanent or anicca?”

rūpaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti?

20.6

“Anicca.”

“Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.7

“But if it’s anicca, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti?

20.8

“Suffering.”

“Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.9

“But if it’s anicca, suffering, and liable to fall apart, is it fit to be regarded thus:

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ:

20.10

‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?

20.11

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.12

“What do you think, Aggivessana?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

20.13

Is feeling …

vedanā …pe…

20.14

perception …

saññā …pe…

20.15

actions done with defilement …

saṅkhārā …pe…

20.16

consciousness permanent or anicca?”

taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, viññāṇaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti?

20.17

“Anicca.”

“Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.18

“But if it’s anicca, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti?

20.19

“Suffering.”

“Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”.

20.20

“But if it’s anicca, suffering, and liable to fall apart, is it fit to be regarded thus:

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ:

20.21

‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?

20.22

“No, Master Gotama.”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

21.1

“What do you think, Aggivessana?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

21.2

Consider someone who clings, holds, and attaches to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is me (my essence).’ Would such a person be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?”

yo nu kho dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, api nu kho so sāmaṁ vā dukkhaṁ parijāneyya, dukkhaṁ vā parikkhepetvā vihareyyā”ti?

21.3

“How could they?

“Kiñhi siyā, bho gotama?

21.4

No, Master Gotama.”

No hidaṁ, bho gotamā”ti.

21.5

“What do you think, Aggivessana?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,

21.6

This being so, aren’t you someone who clings, holds, and attaches to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

nanu tvaṁ evaṁ sante dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ:

21.7

‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassasī”ti?

21.8

“How could I not?

“Kiñhi no siyā, bho gotama?

21.9

Yes, Master Gotama.”

Evametaṁ, bho gotamā”ti.

22.1

“Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest.

“Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, puriso sāratthiko sāragavesī sārapariyesanaṁ caramāno tiṇhaṁ kuṭhāriṁ ādāya vanaṁ paviseyya.

22.2

There they’d see a big banana tree, straight and young and grown free of defects.

So tattha passeyya mahantaṁ kadalikkhandhaṁ ujuṁ navaṁ akukkukajātaṁ.

22.3

They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths.

Tamenaṁ mūle chindeyya, mūle chetvā agge chindeyya, agge chetvā pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujeyya.

22.4

But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood.

So tattha pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujanto pheggumpi nādhigaccheyya, kuto sāraṁ?

22.5

In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be void, hollow, and mistaken.

Evameva kho tvaṁ, aggivessana, mayā sakasmiṁ vāde samanuyuñjiyamāno samanugāhiyamāno samanubhāsiyamāno ritto tuccho aparaddho.

22.6

But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī:

Bhāsitā kho pana te esā, aggivessana, vesāliyaṁ parisati vācā:

22.7

‘If I was to take them on in debate, I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin—leader of an order or a community, or the teacher of a community, even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha—who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits.

‘nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ.

22.8

Even if I took on an insentient post in debate, it would shake and rock and tremble.

Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya.

22.9

How much more then a human being!’

Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā’ti?

22.10

But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground.

Tuyhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, appekaccāni sedaphusitāni nalāṭā muttāni, uttarāsaṅgaṁ vinibhinditvā bhūmiyaṁ patiṭṭhitāni.

22.11

While I now have no sweat on my body.”

Mayhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, natthi etarahi kāyasmiṁ sedo”ti.

22.12

So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly.

Iti bhagavā tasmiṁ parisati suvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ kāyaṁ vivari.

22.13

When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhībhūto maṅkubhūto pattakkhandho adhomukho pajjhāyanto appaṭibhāno nisīdi.

23.1

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha,

Atha kho dummukho licchaviputto saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ tuṇhībhūtaṁ maṅkubhūtaṁ pattakkhandhaṁ adhomukhaṁ pajjhāyantaṁ appaṭibhānaṁ viditvā bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

23.2

“A simile strikes me, Blessed One.”

“upamā maṁ, bhagavā, paṭibhātī”ti.

23.3

“Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha.

“Paṭibhātu taṁ, dummukhā”ti bhagavā avoca.

23.4

“Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village,

“Seyyathāpi, bhante, gāmassa vā nigamassa vā avidūre pokkharaṇī.

23.5

and a crab lived there.

Tatrāssa kakkaṭako.

23.6

Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on dry land.

Atha kho, bhante, sambahulā kumārakā vā kumārikā vā tamhā gāmā vā nigamā vā nikkhamitvā yena sā pokkharaṇī tenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; upasaṅkamitvā taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā taṁ kakkaṭakaṁ udakā uddharitvā thale patiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ.

23.7

Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone.

Yaññadeva hi so, bhante, kakkaṭako aḷaṁ abhininnāmeyya taṁ tadeva te kumārakā vā kumārikā vā kaṭṭhena vā kathalena vā sañchindeyyuṁ sambhañjeyyuṁ sampalibhañjeyyuṁ.

23.8

And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond.

Evañhi so, bhante, kakkaṭako sabbehi aḷehi sañchinnehi sambhaggehi sampalibhaggehi abhabbo taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ puna otarituṁ, seyyathāpi pubbe.

23.9

In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s tricks, dodges, and evasions.

Evameva kho, bhante, yāni saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa visūkāyitāni visevitāni vipphanditāni tānipi sabbāni bhagavatā sañchinnāni sambhaggāni sampalibhaggāni;

23.10

Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

abhabbo ca dāni, bhante, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto puna bhagavantaṁ upasaṅkamituṁ yadidaṁ vādādhippāyo”ti.

24.1

But Saccaka said to him,

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto dummukhaṁ licchaviputtaṁ etadavoca:

24.2

“Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn’t talking with you, I was talking with Master Gotama.

“āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, (…) na mayaṁ tayā saddhiṁ mantema, idha mayaṁ bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ mantema.

24.3

Master Gotama, leave aside that statement I made—as did various other ascetics and brahmins—

Tiṭṭhatesā, bho gotama, amhākañceva aññesañca puthusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ vācā.

24.4

it was, like, just a bit of nonsense.

Vilāpaṁ vilapitaṁ maññe.

24.5

How do you define a disciple of Master Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?”

Kittāvatā ca nu kho bhoto gotamassa sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti?

24.6

“It’s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me (my essence).’

“Idha, aggivessana, mama sāvako yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati;

24.7

They truly see any kind of feeling …

yā kāci vedanā …pe…

24.8

perception …

yā kāci saññā …pe…

24.9

actions done with defilement …

ye keci saṅkhārā …pe…

24.10

consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me (my essence).’

yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā, yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati.

24.11

That’s how to define one of my disciples who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions.”

Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, mama sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti.

25.1

“But how do you define a bhikkhu who is a perfected one, with cravings ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment?”

“Kittāvatā pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto”ti?

25.2

“Idha, aggivessana, bhikkhu yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti;

25.3

They truly see any kind of feeling …

yā kāci vedanā …pe…

25.4

perception …

yā kāci saññā …pe…

25.5

actions done with defilement …

ye keci saṅkhārā …pe…

25.6

yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti.

25.7

That’s how to define a bhikkhu who is a perfected one, with cravings ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment.

Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto.

26.1

A bhikkhu whose mind is freed like this has three unsurpassable qualities:

Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tīhi anuttariyehi samannāgato hoti—

26.2

unsurpassable vision, practice, and freedom.

dassanānuttariyena, paṭipadānuttariyena, vimuttānuttariyena.

26.3

They honor, respect, esteem, and venerate only the Realized One:

Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tathāgataññeva sakkaroti garuṁ karoti māneti pūjeti—

26.4

‘The Blessed One is awakened, tamed, serene, crossed over, and extinguished. And he teaches Dhamma for awakening, self-control, serenity, crossing over, and extinguishment.’”

buddho so bhagavā bodhāya dhammaṁ deseti, danto so bhagavā damathāya dhammaṁ deseti, santo so bhagavā samathāya dhammaṁ deseti, tiṇṇo so bhagavā taraṇāya dhammaṁ deseti, parinibbuto so bhagavā parinibbānāya dhammaṁ desetī”ti.

27.1

When he had spoken, Saccaka said to him,

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

27.2

“Master Gotama, it was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate.

“mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha.

27.3

For a person might find safety after attacking a rutting elephant, but not after attacking Master Gotama.

Siyā hi, bho gotama, hatthiṁ pabhinnaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo.

27.4

A person might find safety after attacking a blazing mass of fire, but not after attacking Master Gotama.

Siyā hi, bho gotama, pajjalitaṁ aggikkhandhaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo.

27.5

They might find safety after attacking a poisonous viper, but not after attacking Master Gotama.

Siyā hi, bho gotama, āsīvisaṁ ghoravisaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo.

27.6

It was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate.

Mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha.

27.7

Would Master Gotama together with the bhikkhu Saṅgha please accept tomorrow’s meal from me?”

Adhivāsetu me bhavaṁ gotamo svātanāya bhattaṁ saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghenā”ti.

27.8

The Buddha consented in silence.

Adhivāsesi bhagavā tuṇhībhāvena.

28.1

Then, knowing that the Buddha had consented, Saccaka addressed those Licchavis,

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavato adhivāsanaṁ viditvā te licchavī āmantesi:

28.2

“Listen, gentlemen. I have invited the ascetic Gotama together with the Saṅgha of bhikkhū for tomorrow’s meal.

“suṇantu me bhonto licchavī, samaṇo me gotamo nimantito svātanāya saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena.

28.3

You may all bring me what you think is suitable.”

Tena me abhihareyyātha yamassa patirūpaṁ maññeyyāthā”ti.

29.1

Then, when the night had passed, those Licchavis presented Saccaka with an offering of five hundred servings of food.

Atha kho te licchavī tassā rattiyā accayena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa pañcamattāni thālipākasatāni bhattābhihāraṁ abhihariṁsu.

29.2

And Saccaka had a variety of delicious foods prepared in his own home. Then he had the Buddha informed of the time, saying,

Atha kho nigaṇṭhaputto sake ārāme paṇītaṁ khādanīyaṁ bhojanīyaṁ paṭiyādāpetvā bhagavato kālaṁ ārocāpesi:

29.3

“Itʼs time, Master Gotama, the meal is ready.”

“kālo, bho gotama, niṭṭhitaṁ bhattan”ti.

30.1

Then the Buddha robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, went to Saccaka’s park, where he sat on the seat spread out, together with the Saṅgha of bhikkhū.

Atha kho bhagavā pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya yena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa ārāmo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā paññatte āsane nisīdi saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena.

30.2

Then Saccaka served and satisfied the bhikkhu Saṅgha headed by the Buddha with his own hands with a variety of delicious foods.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto buddhappamukhaṁ bhikkhusaṅghaṁ paṇītena khādanīyena bhojanīyena sahatthā santappesi sampavāresi.

30.3

When the Buddha had eaten and washed his hand and bowl, Saccaka took a low seat and sat to one side.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ bhuttāviṁ onītapattapāṇiṁ aññataraṁ nīcaṁ āsanaṁ gahetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi.

30.4

Then Saccaka said to the Buddha,

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

30.5

“Master Gotama, may the merit and the growth of merit in this gift be for the happiness of the donors.”

“yamidaṁ, bho gotama, dāne puññañca puññamahī ca taṁ dāyakānaṁ sukhāya hotū”ti.

30.6

“Aggivessana, whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as yourself—who is not free of greed, hate, and delusion—will accrue to the donors.

“Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, tādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma avītarāgaṁ avītadosaṁ avītamohaṁ, taṁ dāyakānaṁ bhavissati.

30.7

Whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as myself—who is free of greed, hate, and delusion—will accrue to you.”

Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, mādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma vītarāgaṁ vītadosaṁ vītamohaṁ, taṁ tuyhaṁ bhavissatī”ti.

30.8

Cūḷasaccakasuttaṁ niṭṭhitaṁ pañcamaṁ.