SN 35-44 The Group of Connected Discourses Beginning With the Six Sense Fields – Saḷāyatanavaggasaṁyutta > SN 44 Connected Discourses on the Undeclared – Abyākatasaṁyutta > SN 44.1 With Khemā

Linked Discourses 44.1 – Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.1

1. The Undeclared Points – 1. Abyākatavagga

SN 44.1 With Khemā – Khemāsutta

At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.

Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṁ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.

Now at that time the nun Khemā was wandering in the land of the Kosalans between Sāvatthī and Sāketa when she took up residence in Toraṇavatthu.

Tena kho pana samayena khemā bhikkhunī kosalesu cārikaṁ caramānā antarā ca sāvatthiṁ antarā ca sāketaṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagatā hoti.

Then King Pasenadi was traveling from Sāketa to Sāvatthī, and he too stayed in Toraṇavatthu for a single night.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo sāketā sāvatthiṁ gacchanto, antarā ca sāketaṁ antarā ca sāvatthiṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ ekarattivāsaṁ upagacchi.

Then King Pasenadi addressed a man,

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aññataraṁ purisaṁ āmantesi:

“Please, mister, check if there’s a suitable ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu to whom I can pay homage.”

“ehi tvaṁ, ambho purisa, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā jāna yamahaṁ ajja payirupāseyyan”ti.

“Yes, Your Majesty,” replied that man. He searched all over Toraṇavatthu, but he couldn’t see a suitable ascetic or brahmin for the king to pay homage to.

“Evaṁ, devā”ti kho so puriso rañño pasenadissa kosalassa paṭissutvā kevalakappaṁ toraṇavatthuṁ āhiṇḍanto nāddasa tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā yaṁ rājā pasenadi kosalo payirupāseyya.

But he saw that the nun Khemā was staying there,

Addasā kho so puriso khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagataṁ.

so he went to the king and said to him,

Disvāna yena rājā pasenadi kosalo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā rājānaṁ pasenadiṁ kosalaṁ etadavoca:

“Your Majesty, there’s no ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu for the king to pay homage to.

“Natthi kho, deva, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpo samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā yaṁ devo payirupāseyya.

But there is the nun Khemā, who’s a disciple of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.

Atthi ca kho, deva, khemā nāma bhikkhunī, tassa bhagavato sāvikā arahato sammāsambuddhassa.

She has a good reputation as being

Tassā kho pana ayyāya evaṁ kalyāṇo kittisaddo abbhuggato:

astute, competent, clever, learned, a brilliant speaker, and eloquent.

‘paṇḍitā, viyattā medhāvinī bahussutā cittakathā kalyāṇapaṭibhānā’ti.

Your Majesty may pay homage to her.”

Taṁ devo payirupāsatū”ti.

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the nun Khemā, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to her:

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo yena khemā bhikkhunī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ etadavoca:

“Ma’am, does a Realized One exist after death?”

“kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Great king, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā:

‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a Realized One not exist after death?”

“Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:

‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a Realized One both exist and not exist after death?”

“Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“This has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā:

‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a Realized One neither exist nor not exist after death?”

“Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti.

“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:

‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Ma’am, when asked these questions, you say

“‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti, iti puṭṭhā samānā:

that this has not been declared by the Buddha.

‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā—

hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.

‘Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:

‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā—

na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.

‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:

‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā—

hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.

‘Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā:

‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā—

neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.

What’s the cause, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”

Ko nu kho, ayye, hetu, ko paccayo yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Well then, great king, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.

“Tena hi, mahārāja, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.

What do you think, great king?

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, mahārāja,

Is there any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the grains of sand in the Ganges, that is,

atthi te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti gaṅgāya vālukaṁ gaṇetuṁ—

how many grains of sand there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of grains of sand?”

ettakā vālukā iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No, ma’am.”

“No hetaṁ, ayye”.

“Is there any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the water in the ocean, that is,

“Atthi pana te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti mahāsamudde udakaṁ gaṇetuṁ—

how many gallons of water there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of gallons of water?”

ettakāni udakāḷhakāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No, ma’am.

“No hetaṁ, ayye”.

Why is that?

“Taṁ kissa hetu”?

Because the ocean is deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom.”

“Mahāyye, samuddo gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho”ti.

“In the same way, great king, any form by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.

“Evameva kho, mahārāja, yena rūpena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ rūpaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.

A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,

Rūpasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

like the ocean.

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

To say that after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist: none of these apply.

‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.

Any feeling …

Yāya vedanāya tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, sā vedanā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.

Vedanāsaṅkhāyavimutto, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

perception …

Yāya saññāya tathāgataṁ …pe…

saṅkhāra …

yehi saṅkhārehi tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, te saṅkhārā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.

Saṅkhārasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

consciousness by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.

Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.

A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,

Viññāṇasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

like the ocean.

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

To say that after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist: none of these apply.”

Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the nun Khemā said. Then he got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled her, keeping her on his right, before leaving.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemāya bhikkhuniyā bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmi.

Then on a later occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha exactly the same questions he had asked the nun Khemā, and received the same answers.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aparena samayena yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā:

‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Kiṁ pana, bhante, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā:

‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā:

‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā:

‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“‘Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno:

‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā—hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi …pe….

“‘Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno:

‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā—

neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi.

Ko nu kho, bhante, hetu, ko paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Tena hi, mahārāja, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, mahārāja, atthi te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti gaṅgāya vālukaṁ gaṇetuṁ—

ettakā vālukā iti vā …pe… ettakāni vālukasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Atthi pana te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti mahāsamudde udakaṁ gaṇetuṁ—

ettakāni udakāḷhakāni iti vā …pe… ettakāni udakāḷhakasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Taṁ kissa hetu”?

“Mahā, bhante, samuddo gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho.

Evameva kho, mahārāja, yena rūpena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, taṁ rūpaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.

Rūpasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti …pe…

‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.

Yāya vedanāya …pe…

yāya saññāya …pe… yehi saṅkhārehi …pe….

Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.

Viññāṇasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho—

seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.

He said, “It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing!

“Acchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante.

How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!

Yatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.

This one time I went to the nun Khemā and asked her about this matter.

Ekamidāhaṁ, bhante, samayaṁ khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ upasaṅkamitvā etamatthaṁ apucchiṁ.

And she explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like the Buddha.

Sāpi me ayyā etehi padehi etehi byañjanehi etamatthaṁ byākāsi, seyyathāpi bhagavā.

It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing!

Acchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante.

How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!

Yatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.

Well, now, sir, I must go.

Handa dāni mayaṁ, bhante, gacchāma.

I have many duties, and much to do.”

Bahukiccā mayaṁ bahukaraṇīyā”ti.

“Please, great king, go at your convenience.”

“Yassadāni tvaṁ, mahārāja, kālaṁ maññasī”ti.

Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right, before leaving.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavato bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmīti.