SN 35-44 The Group of Connected Discourses Beginning With the Six Sense Fields – Saḷāyatanavaggasaṁyutta > SN 41 Connected Discourses with Citta the Householder – Cittasaṁyutta > SN 41.8 Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta

Linked Discourses 41.8 – Saṁyutta Nikāya 41.8

1. With Citta – 1. Cittavagga

SN 41.8 Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta – Nigaṇṭhanāṭaputtasutta

Now at that time Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.

Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto hoti mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ.

Citta the householder heard that they had arrived.

Assosi kho citto gahapati: “nigaṇṭho kira nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhin”ti.

Together with several lay followers, he went up to Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta and exchanged greetings with him.

Atha kho citto gahapati sambahulehi upāsakehi saddhiṁ yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhena nāṭaputtena saddhiṁ sammodi.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta said to him,

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho cittaṁ gahapatiṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto etadavoca:

“Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that

“saddahasi tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa—

there is a state of samādhi without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”

atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti?

“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that

“Na khvāhaṁ ettha, bhante, bhagavato saddhāya gacchāmi.

there is a state of samādhi without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.”

Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.

When he said this, Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta looked up at his assembly and said,

Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto ulloketvā etadavoca:

“See, good sirs, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all. To imagine that you can stop placing the mind and keeping it connected would be like imagining that you can catch the wind in a net, or dam the Ganges river with your own hand.”

“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapati, vātaṁ vā so jālena bādhetabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyya, sakamuṭṭhinā vā so gaṅgāya sotaṁ āvāretabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyyā”ti.

“What do you think, sir?

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, bhante,

Which is better—knowledge or faith?”

katamaṁ nu kho paṇītataraṁ—ñāṇaṁ vā saddhā vā”ti?

“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”

“Saddhāya kho, gahapati, ñāṇaṁyeva paṇītataran”ti.

“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

“Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.

And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption.

Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.

And whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption.

Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.

And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption.

Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, sukhassa ca pahānā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.

And so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that

Na so khvāhaṁ, bhante, evaṁ jānanto evaṁ passanto kassa aññassa samaṇassa vā brāhmaṇassa vā saddhāya gamissāmi?

there is a state of samādhi without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”

Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.

When he said this, Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta looked askance at his own assembly and said,

Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto sakaṁ parisaṁ apaloketvā etadavoca:

“See, good sirs, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!”

“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī”ti.

“Sir, just now I understood you to say:

“Idāneva kho te mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:

‘See, good sirs, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all.’

‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.

But then I understood you to say:

Idāneva ca pana mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:

‘See, good sirs, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!’

‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.

If your first statement is true, the second is wrong.

Sace te, bhante, purimaṁ saccaṁ, pacchimaṁ te micchā.

If your first statement is wrong, the second is true.

Sace pana te, bhante, purimaṁ micchā, pacchimaṁ te saccaṁ.

And also, sir, these ten legitimate questions are relevant.

Ime kho pana, bhante, dasa sahadhammikā pañhā āgacchanti.

When you understand what they mean, then, together with your assembly of Jain ascetics, you can rebut me.

Yadā nesaṁ atthaṁ ājāneyyāsi, atha maṁ paṭihareyyāsi saddhiṁ nigaṇṭhaparisāya.

‘One thing: question, summary, and answer. Two … three … four … five … six … seven … eight … nine … ten things: question, summary, and answer.’”

Eko pañho, eko uddeso, ekaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ.

Dve pañhā, dve uddesā, dve veyyākaraṇāni.

Tayo pañhā, tayo uddesā, tīṇi veyyākaraṇāni.

Cattāro pañhā, cattāro uddesā, cattāri veyyākaraṇāni.

Pañca pañhā, pañca uddesā, pañca veyyākaraṇāni.

Cha pañhā, cha uddesā, cha veyyākaraṇāni.

Satta pañhā, satta uddesā, satta veyyākaraṇāni.

Aṭṭha pañhā, aṭṭha uddesā, aṭṭha veyyākaraṇāni.

Nava pañhā, nava uddesā, nava veyyākaraṇāni.

Dasa pañhā, dasa uddesā, dasa veyyākaraṇānī”ti.

Then Citta got up from his seat and left without asking Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta these ten legitimate questions.

Atha kho citto gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ ime dasa sahadhammike pañhe āpucchitvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkāmīti.