SN 12-21 The Group of Connected Discourses Beginning With Causation – Nidānavaggasaṁyutta > SN 12 Connected Discourses on Causation – Nidānasaṁyutta > SN 12.24 Followers of Other Paths

Linked Discourses 12.24 – Saṁyutta Nikāya 12.24

3. The Ten Powers – 3. Dasabalavagga

SN 12.24 Followers of Other Paths – Aññatitthiyasutta

Near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove.

Rājagahe viharati veḷuvane.

Then Venerable Sāriputta robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Rājagaha for alms.

Atha kho āyasmā sāriputto pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya rājagahaṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi.

Then it occurred to him,

Atha kho āyasmato sāriputtassa etadahosi:

“It’s too early to wander for alms in Rājagaha.

“atippago kho tāva rājagahe piṇḍāya carituṁ.

Why don’t I go to the monastery of the wanderers who follow other paths?”

Yannūnāhaṁ yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkameyyan”ti.

Then he went to the monastery of the wanderers who follow other paths, and exchanged greetings with the wanderers there.

Atha kho āyasmā sāriputto yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ sammodi.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. The wanderers said to him:

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho āyasmantaṁ sāriputtaṁ te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā etadavocuṁ:

“Reverend Sāriputta, there are ascetics and brahmins who teach the efficacy of deeds. Some of them declare that suffering is made by oneself.

“Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Some of them declare that suffering is made by another.

Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Some of them declare that suffering is made by both oneself and another.

Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Some of them declare that suffering arises by chance, not made by oneself or another.

Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

What does the ascetic Gotama say about this? How does he explain it?

Idha, panāvuso sāriputta, samaṇo gotamo kiṁvādī kimakkhāyī?

How should we answer so as to repeat what the ascetic Gotama has said, and not misrepresent him with an untruth? How should we explain in line with his teaching, with no legitimate grounds for rebuke and criticism?”

Kathaṁ byākaramānā ca mayaṁ vuttavādino ceva samaṇassa gotamassa assāma, na ca samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyāma, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyāma, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā”ti?

“Reverends, the Buddha said that suffering is dependently originated.

“Paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, āvuso, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā.

Dependent on what?

Kiṁ paṭicca?

Dependent on contact.

Phassaṁ paṭicca.

If you said this you would repeat what the Buddha has said, and not misrepresent him with an untruth. You would explain in line with his teaching, and there would be no legitimate grounds for rebuke and criticism.

Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assa, na ca bhagavantaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyya.

Consider the ascetics and brahmins who teach the efficacy of deeds. In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself, that’s conditioned by contact.

Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by another, that’s also conditioned by contact.

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself and another, that’s also conditioned by contact.

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

In the case of those who declare that suffering arises by chance, not made by oneself or another, that’s also conditioned by contact.

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

Consider the ascetics and brahmins who teach the efficacy of deeds. In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact.

Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by another, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact.

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself and another, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact.

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

In the case of those who declare that suffering arises by chance, not made by oneself or another, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact.”

Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī”ti.

Venerable Ānanda heard this discussion between Venerable Sāriputta and those wanderers who follow other paths.

Assosi kho āyasmā ānando āyasmato sāriputtassa tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ imaṁ kathāsallāpaṁ.

Then Ānanda wandered for alms in Rājagaha. After the meal, on his return from almsround, he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side,

Atha kho āyasmā ānando rājagahe piṇḍāya caritvā pacchābhattaṁ piṇḍapātapaṭikkanto yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi.

and informed the Buddha of all they had discussed.

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando yāvatako āyasmato sāriputtassa tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ ahosi kathāsallāpo taṁ sabbaṁ bhagavato ārocesi.

“Good, good, Ānanda! It’s just as Sāriputta has so rightly explained.

“Sādhu sādhu, ānanda, yathā taṁ sāriputto sammā byākaramāno byākareyya.

I have said that suffering is dependently originated.

Paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, ānanda, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ mayā.

Dependent on what?

Kiṁ paṭicca?

Dependent on contact.

Phassaṁ paṭicca.

Saying this you would repeat what I have said, and not misrepresent me with an untruth. You would explain in line with my teaching, and there would be no legitimate grounds for rebuke and criticism.

Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva me assa, na ca maṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyya.

Consider the ascetics and brahmins who teach the efficacy of deeds. In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself, that’s conditioned by contact. …

Tatrānanda, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

Yepi te …pe…

yepi te …pe…

In the case of those who declare that suffering arises by chance, not made by oneself or another, that’s also conditioned by contact.

yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

In the case of those who declare that suffering is made by oneself, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact. …

Tatrānanda, yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

Yepi te …pe…

yepi te …pe…

In the case of those who declare that suffering arises by chance, not made by oneself or another, it’s impossible that they will experience that without contact.

yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

Ānanda, this one time I was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.

Ekamidāhaṁ, ānanda, samayaṁ idheva rājagahe viharāmi veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe.

Then I robed up in the morning and, taking my bowl and robe, entered Rājagaha for alms.

Atha khvāhaṁ, ānanda, pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya rājagahaṁ piṇḍāya pāvisiṁ.

Then I thought:

Tassa mayhaṁ, ānanda, etadahosi:

‘It’s too early to wander for alms in Rājagaha.

‘atippago kho tāva rājagahe piṇḍāya carituṁ.

Why don’t I go to the monastery of the wanderers who follow other paths?’

Yannūnāhaṁ yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkameyyan’ti.

Then I went to the monastery of the wanderers who follow other paths, and exchanged greetings with the wanderers there.

Atha khvāhaṁ, ānanda, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ sammodiṁ.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side. …”

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁ. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho maṁ, ānanda, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā etadavocuṁ:

(The wanderers asked the Buddha the very same questions, and he gave the same answers.)

‘Santāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Santi panāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Santāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Santi panāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.

Idha no āyasmā gotamo kiṁvādī kimakkhāyī?

Kathaṁ byākaramānā ca mayaṁ vuttavādino ceva āyasmato gotamassa assāma, na ca āyasmantaṁ gotamaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyāma, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyāma, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā’ti?

Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, ānanda, te aññatitthiye paribbājake etadavocaṁ:

‘paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, āvuso, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ mayā.

Kiṁ paṭicca?

Phassaṁ paṭicca.

Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva me assa, na ca maṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyāti.

Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

Yepi te …pe…

yepi te …pe…

yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

Yepi te …pe…

yepi te …pe…

yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī’”ti.

“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing,

“Acchariyaṁ bhante, abbhutaṁ bhante.

how the whole matter is stated with one phrase.

Yatra hi nāma ekena padena sabbo attho vutto bhavissati.

Could there be a detailed explanation of this matter that is both deep and appears deep?”

Siyā nu kho, bhante, esevattho vitthārena vuccamāno gambhīro ceva assa gambhīrāvabhāso cā”ti?

“Well then, Ānanda, clarify this matter yourself.”

“Tena hānanda, taññevettha paṭibhātū”ti.

“Sir, suppose they were to ask me:

“Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ:

‘Reverend Ānanda, what is the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of old age and death?’

‘jarāmaraṇaṁ, āvuso ānanda, kiṁnidānaṁ kiṁsamudayaṁ kiṁjātikaṁ kiṁpabhavan’ti?

I’d answer like this:

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ:

‘Reverends, rebirth is the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of old age and death.’

‘jarāmaraṇaṁ kho, āvuso, jātinidānaṁ jātisamudayaṁ jātijātikaṁ jātipabhavan’ti.

That’s how I’d answer such a question.

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.

Suppose they were to ask me:

Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ:

‘What is the source of rebirth?’

‘jāti panāvuso ānanda, kiṁnidānā kiṁsamudayā kiṁjātikā kiṁpabhavā’ti?

I’d answer like this:

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ:

‘Continued existence is the source of rebirth.’

‘jāti kho, āvuso, bhavanidānā bhavasamudayā bhavajātikā bhavappabhavā’ti.

That’s how I’d answer such a question.

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.

Suppose they were to ask me:

Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ:

‘What is the source of continued existence?’

‘bhavo panāvuso ānanda, kiṁnidāno kiṁsamudayo kiṁjātiko kiṁpabhavo’ti?

I’d answer like this:

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ:

‘Grasping is the source of continued existence.’

‘bhavo kho, āvuso, upādānanidāno upādānasamudayo upādānajātiko upādānappabhavo’ti.

That’s how I’d answer such a question.

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.

Suppose they were to ask me:

Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ—

‘What is the source of grasping?’ …

upādānaṁ panāvuso …pe…

craving …

taṇhā panāvuso …pe…

feeling …

vedanā panāvuso …pe…

Suppose they were to ask me:

sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ:

‘What is the source of contact?’

‘phasso panāvuso ānanda, kiṁnidāno kiṁsamudayo kiṁjātiko kiṁpabhavo’ti?

I’d answer like this:

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ:

‘The six sense fields are the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of contact.’

‘phasso kho, āvuso, saḷāyatananidāno saḷāyatanasamudayo saḷāyatanajātiko saḷāyatanappabhavo’ti.

‘When the six sense fields fade away and cease with nothing left over, contact ceases.

‘Channaṁ tveva, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṁ asesavirāganirodhā phassanirodho;

When contact ceases, feeling ceases.

phassanirodhā vedanānirodho;

When feeling ceases, craving ceases.

vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho;

When craving ceases, grasping ceases.

taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho;

When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases.

upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho;

When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases.

bhavanirodhā jātinirodho;

When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease.

jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti.

That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’

Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī’ti.

That’s how I’d answer such a question.”

Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyan”ti.